Neurogiving: Science of Donor Decision-Making | Author Interview

riverside_cherian_& george magic episode _ dec 19, 2025_using_whole whale p

Cherian Koshy: [00:00:00] So actually Paul Zack did a study that if you dose people with dopamine, they actually end up, they make more generous decisions. So it literally is the case that, um,

George Weiner: if your ambient level of dopamine is higher, you’re like, yes,

Cherian Koshy: percent,

George Weiner: you’re primed, forgiving.

Cherian Koshy: Correct. So if you can figure out a way, and I mean like, obviously we’re not gonna inject people with dopamine to fundraising, but hold on. I

George Weiner: feel like there’s a few folks out there and a few fundraiser be like, I mean, like how invasive is this? Is this like, can we put it in an MM That’s like, can we do that?

George Weiner: This week on the whole Whale podcast, we have found a very interesting guest talking about a topic that’s near and dear to our hearts with regard to giving. There are so many questions to go over and I frankly, I just kind of saw him pop up on LinkedIn and frankly up on some charts for some bestselling books, which we’ll get to in a second.

George Weiner: His name is Cher Khi. He is the author of the book, neuro Giving, the Science of Donor Decision Making. So many [00:01:00] questions in there as well as the VP of hindsight. Jian, thanks for for coming on and I have to note he is taking time on a Friday before the holidays to speak with us. So how’s it going?

Cherian Koshy: Well, George, thanks for having me on, especially on a Friday before the holidays.

Cherian Koshy: It’s great to be here. Uh, really appreciate it.

George Weiner: Yeah, and I feel like, uh, you know. Christmas or your holiday of, of choice came early. Are you rising the ranks of USA today right now for, for this book that people should obviously be hustling to get?

Cherian Koshy: It was, so the day after it was published, it was like, it made the list, which was sort of unbelievable.

Cherian Koshy: We don’t think a nonprofit book, like memoirs of nonprofit leaders have made the book, but a nonprofit book has not made the list. And then this last week it hit number 11, which is. Totally, totally unheard of. So it’s just wild and yeah, I’m just incredibly humbled by that.

George Weiner: Oh, that’s fantastic. [00:02:00] And you know, folks can obviously go chase this book down.

George Weiner: The Neuro Giving, um, is such a catchy title A name. You’re like Neuro Giving Thanks. You’re like, oh my gosh. Yeah, let’s get in that brain and get ’em to give, like, how did you come up with this title?

Cherian Koshy: Uh, I mean. The, the po bon to kind of concept was always something that was kind of cool to me. And I wanted to think about it actually more in terms of giving than fundraising because, uh, I really wanted to focus on the fact that it wasn’t about ex like, getting people to, um, do something that they didn’t want to do.

Cherian Koshy: So the, the whole premise of the book is actually that people consider themselves generous and it’s about us. Allowing them or getting out of their way and aligning with the brain’s way of thinking as opposed to us doing certain things to get them to do what they don’t wanna do. If that makes [00:03:00] sense.

George Weiner: And can you walk us through the journey of creating this book? You know, how long have you been working on it?

Cherian Koshy: Yeah.

George Weiner: How many, uh, trees did you have to chop down?

Cherian Koshy: So the, the weird part is, so I’ve been, um. Fundraising, working in nonprofits for a little less than 30 years, and I had gone through trial and error trying to figure it out like most people do.

Cherian Koshy: Some things worked, other things didn’t, and I thought it was user error. So I read more books and like, if you can see behind me, I own almost every book ever written on you

George Weiner: did it. You

Cherian Koshy: got every book. I did. I was like, this is like, I gotta figure out what’s wrong and somebody’s gotta have the answer. And then I went to all the conferences and I listened to all the speakers and I saw like all the same slides and I’m like, uh, am I just doing it wrong?

Cherian Koshy: And I went to workshops and I went to like masterclasses and I’m like, I don’t get it. Am I just like. Not figuring it out. And then I got into neuroscience and behavioral science. I’m like, maybe [00:04:00] this is it. And it started to make sense that this is how the brain works. And so I started in addition to my own research around the topic, doing some webinars and workshops and whatnot.

Cherian Koshy: And I put together my findings, my, you know, those research components. And people were like, Hey, where was that study you cited? Where’s the Katie Milkman study and whatnot. And I would share that with folks. And that’s. A lot of where this research is coming from. So the book is not my, like I did this in a nonprofit and you should do this too.

Cherian Koshy: Mm-hmm. It’s 220 peer reviewed source citations, academic research so that people can follow the research path and decide that’s the way that I, you know, I want to go down that route, or I want to go down a different route, or I’m gonna go. A route all my own, but they have the research backing to kind of follow through on what they wanna do as opposed to just saying like, somebody in some organization tried it this way and I’m gonna try it that way too.

George Weiner: Yeah, I kind of love that. [00:05:00] Look at what’s out there first and something gnawing at you. It’s like, I feel like there is a missing puzzle piece here, and that’s probably why this book is taking off because everyone’s sort of. Could point in the general area, but not their finger on it. And as with things that are simple, not easy.

George Weiner: I feel like you’ve touched on the role of dopamine in this game. Am I oversimplifying or is that where your story focuses on?

Cherian Koshy: Uh, I think it’s a good oversimplification. So, so the way that I oversimplify my own book, really, like, I think that’s a good way of doing it.

George Weiner: Wanna qualify that. I think simple is beautiful and complex is messy.

George Weiner: Yes, I

Cherian Koshy: do.

George Weiner: I agree. I agree. I’m more suspicious of the like 17 part, you know, uh, arranged plan of like, this is how it works. I’m like, well, I like this story.

Cherian Koshy: Yeah.

George Weiner: Context. I mean, simple is beautiful. I’m curious,

Cherian Koshy: and I mean, you had JJ on the podcast a little while ago, and I truly believe that concept that, you know, [00:06:00] if you confuse, you lose, and if it’s complicated, it, uh, that’s the whole premise of the neuroscience around it as well.

Cherian Koshy: Like our brains really like. To have a simple plan laid out in front of us, but it really is around these neurochemicals, right? That generosity is actually a biological function, and dopamine, serotonin and oxytocin are the chemicals that. Are released when generosity occurs. And so when we understand that, when we know that not only generosity, but actually trust is a biological phenomenon, we can optimize or understand what needs to happen in order for that to occur.

Cherian Koshy: That it’s not just some like happen chance type of thing. It’s not magic that occurs, but there are certain pieces that need to come into play for. Trust to be developed in the human brain. Consistency has to occur over time for trust to be [00:07:00] developed. And generosity is an, is a result of a trusting relationship.

Cherian Koshy: People don’t just like hand over their money to a stranger in general, unless they trust someone because. You know, if it’s a product that you’re buying, you might need that product. And so you have an exchange of value. Like, I’m gonna buy a phone, I’m gonna buy a, uh, you know, whatever it is. And you’re like, uh, I need that thing.

Cherian Koshy: But when you’re talking about giving away something without an exchange of a good or a service or something like that, you really need to trust that person and that organization to follow through on your expectation of doing good in the world. So those. Neurochemicals that that occur are really essential.

Cherian Koshy: So for a seasoned nonprofit professional, for a fundraiser or communications professional, what I’ve been hearing from folks around the concept and the research in the book is. [00:08:00] They know what things work. They’ve seen it work in their profession. They’ve accomplished it, but having the science backing, knowing that there’s research around it, allows them to put the why behind the what and the how, and.

Cherian Koshy: Because they know the why. They can now extrapolate around that and say, oh, if I, if that’s the why behind it, now I can play around with different options and elaborate. And it’s sort of like playing jazz, right? Like we, we were doing these things before and sort of running, you know, like if you’re learning a new language, you’re sort of saying the words, but you’re not getting the exact.

Cherian Koshy: Right cadence and not using the words, um, in a vernacular, but when you are really into it and you get it, um, sort of as a native speaker, you’re saying words in a much more fluent way. That’s the way I think about like, [00:09:00] understanding the science behind it. You’re like, oh, now I’m able to like actually play this out when I’m speaking to a donor or where I’m writing to a donor or what I’m using.

Cherian Koshy: Digital, uh, tools or whatnot, like all of this starts to play in a really cool way.

George Weiner: Here’s my version of this. Yeah. I feel like we’re just, you know, dopamine dealers here. We’re not giving your product, we’re dopamine dealers. How does hundred

Cherian Koshy: percent, right.

George Weiner: What you just communicated to the donor deal a dose of dopamine, which can you just explain what dopamine is in the context of your use and study of it or your study of the studies?

Cherian Koshy: So there’s, that’s exactly right. It’s my study of the studies. So actually Paul Zack did a study that if you dose people with dopamine, they actually end up, they make more generous decisions. So it literally is the case that, um,

George Weiner: if your ambient level of dopamine is higher, you’re like, yes,

Cherian Koshy: percent,

George Weiner: you’re primed, forgiving.[00:10:00]

Cherian Koshy: Correct. So if you can figure out a way, and I mean like, obviously we’re not gonna inject people with dopamine to fundraising, but hold on. I

George Weiner: feel like there’s a few folks out there and a few fundraiser be like, I mean, like how invasive is this? Is this like, can we put it in an MM That’s like, can we do that?

That’s,

Cherian Koshy: that’s, that’s gonna cross the, for sure. Gonna

George Weiner: grab an m&m right now.

Cherian Koshy: But here, here’s one thing, George, that I will say there’s a reason why a lot of fundraising events happen in the evening. And the reason why I say that is because our brains operate on, uh, essentially like a phone on 1% battery life.

Cherian Koshy: Our brains are, um, they, they occupy 3% of our body mass, but consume 25% of our calories. So they’re always trying to take shortcuts. And so at the beginning of the day, your brain has a lot of energy and it will make really, really good decisions. But at the end of the day, hence, like right now for you, you’re popping [00:11:00] m and ms.

Cherian Koshy: You know that they’re not the most, most healthy decision that you can make, but you’re like, eh, I’m gonna eat some m and ms now. Right? By the end of the day, people are more susceptible, if you will, to making decisions that they’re more emotional about, like, feel M and mss, feel good right now, chips, popcorn, whatever.

Cherian Koshy: I’m gonna make ice cream decisions at the end of the day when I feel good about, you know, feel less constrained by those decisions. So at the end of the day when I’m at a fundraising event. Am I gonna be more generous? Absolutely. The same way with dopamine, oxytocin, oxytocins, the bonding hormone. These types of chemicals, um, are the ones that allow you to make more generous decisions.

Cherian Koshy: So, as you are. Telling more emotionally relevant stories. Lemme be clear about that. Not just emotional stories, but more emotionally relevant [00:12:00] stories. As you are doing so in a way that creates more socialization, more social connection, people become more generous. So you’re absolutely right that we are neurochemical dealers, dopamine dealers, and doing so in a, a way that aligns with people’s identities with doing so in an ethical way.

Cherian Koshy: Creates an environment where people will make pro-social decisions, generosity decisions of their time, of their money, of engaging with the causes that, let me be clear, they’re already inclined to engage with. So if somebody hates cats, are they suddenly going to love cats? By the end of the day? No, that’s not gonna happen.

Cherian Koshy: But if they’re inclined to love cats, are they more likely to make a donation to your cat? Charity For sure.

George Weiner: And that gets into priming trust and the alignment parts, which are part of that process. It seemed like for the most part, you’re, you’re more on that. What was [00:13:00] that biological response to giving, I don’t know if you call it a helper’s high.

Cherian Koshy: Yeah, that’s exactly what it’s called. Yep. Helper’s high.

George Weiner: And so inside of that, you know, that’s where we’re focusing. We’re amplifying, I mean, we wanna do more of that. What were some of the like are all, here’s a different way to phrase it, are all helpers highs created equally?

Cherian Koshy: They are not. And so on the, the first level, one of the issues that occurs for most organizations is because they don’t understand the neurochemical reaction, particularly the helper’s high.

Cherian Koshy: So think of that like as a runner’s high, it’s not exactly the same thing, but when. When a runner goes out for a run and they get this rush of endorphins, these neurochemicals, they feel good about running. It’s kind of the same thing as a generous person. They make a a generous gift of time or money.

Cherian Koshy: They feel this rush of neurochemicals. They feel very good about giving people that are in the nonprofit [00:14:00] space when they don’t understand that there is that. Helpers high component, a warm glow effect, as it’s called in the literature. They don’t amplify that effect. What happens is the person doesn’t get the response that their, their brain needs to the thing that they did, and so their brain says, the thing that you did was not what you actually should have done.

Cherian Koshy: So they don’t get the feedback of saying. That that was a good thing. They actually think that was not a good idea. Um, and they’re like, maybe I should have eaten a bowl of ice cream instead to feel good. Maybe I should have gone running instead. I don’t need to repeat this behavior. And that impacts retention, loyalty, all of those other aspects that we as organizations care about.

Cherian Koshy: If we change our behavior and we reinforce the helper’s high, the warm glow effect, it [00:15:00] does tell the donor’s brain, you did a good thing. You accomplished something that you were intending to do, meaning you aligned with your intention of being genera generous. So you should keep doing that thing. If you wanna keep feeling this way.

Cherian Koshy: Same way with a runner, you should go running again. That’s the idea of habit formation, which is what essentially all organizations are trying to accomplish. So to your point of how do we navigate like the helper’s High Dyna dynamic, this then reshapes how we think about. Not only our appeals, our website design, our digital social media, like all of those pieces because it’s not about what we want to communicate.

Cherian Koshy: It’s about how do we reinforce what the donor needs to hear, if that makes sense.

George Weiner: There’s subtle nuances clearly of [00:16:00] what happens if you’re like, wait a minute, I know I was told to tell a story. I know that we have to send a thank you. Yep. But you’re sort of, you know, playing in the land of the symptom rather than where we’re trying to look at cures.

George Weiner: We’re looking at a full understanding of the system and in that simple view of what will deliver the dopamine. So that like, not to be manipulative, but like our audience, the folks that listen to this, get it. We’re like, we’re here for a cause and we wanna have the. The most effective impact and like what I’m hearing is like what is a later in the day ad targeting messaging strategy look like?

George Weiner: Because on average that is, that is where that lands. I am wondering, you know, when I look at the macro picture of decline, stagnation in giving and overall giving, at one level it’s, it’s math. This is just tied to 2%, 1.9% of G-D-P-G-D-P. Okay.

Cherian Koshy: Yep. Hundred percent.

George Weiner: But from your lens and your work on it like.

George Weiner: Giving ain’t doing [00:17:00] great. What is the role of some of the research pointing at as to a, a narrative as to why?

Cherian Koshy: So I think the narrative as to why has a lot to do with how we have over complicated giving to nonprofit organizations. And there’s a, um. There’s a structure to giving to, you know, the traditional nonprofit where whether there’s an expectation of going to a website or responding through direct mail or meeting with a person to get a major gift or whatnot.

Cherian Koshy: And so the measurement of all of the generosity markers that we have currently. That’s tied to exactly what you said, 1.9 to 2% of GDP, whether it’s giving USA or uh, AFP’s Fundraising Effectiveness project. All of that data demonstrates that decline. And let me be clear, I’m not railing against either of those data points or either of those studies.

Cherian Koshy: I’m on the board of a FP Global, I’m on the Board of Giving Institute. [00:18:00] They’re legitimate and helpful, but there’s a limitation to both of those. Study points. One is from nine 90 data, one is from CRM Data. The evidence indicates is that most people, the University of Chicago did a study earlier in 2025 that said that 75% of Americans had given to a nonprofit in the past year.

Cherian Koshy: And when I hear that number, I’m like, that doesn’t seem right at all. Like. My like red flag antenna is like that. That doesn’t make any sense. So how do we square the circle of these different data points? And what I would say is that those 75% of people are not thinking of themselves as giving a tax deductible donation to a C3 nonprofit.

Cherian Koshy: They’re thinking of themselves as giving to something. And whether that’s a peer-to-peer donation, whether that’s [00:19:00] like some kid coming to their door and making a gift, whether it’s self-help in some way. There’s ways in the line that I’ve given keynotes and workshop all the time is generosity finds a way.

Cherian Koshy: So that might be giving at their, um, their place of worship. It might be whatever it might be. They’re counting it all. We are not counting it all. There’s a disconnect around measurement, but people are finding a way to be generous. We’re just not tapping into it in the right way. Now, do I think that. And, and both, you know, the 1.92% of GDP number is still an issue.

Cherian Koshy: I think the, the amount of giving to places of worship and religious causes has gone down as religious participation has gone down in the last 20 years. So I would say that generosity in general in the US has gone down [00:20:00] for sure. That is something that as a country we need to grapple with. I think the reason because the reason for that is because we have not transmitted the value of giving generationally.

Cherian Koshy: It’s not as visible as it was 20 years ago in the past. It was something that was a shared. Generational concept that people saw. And I also think the polarization in our communities make it much more difficult for us to see us as us. So it’s much harder to to feel our way through generosity. So there is an absolute decline, but I also think our measurement is not correct.

Cherian Koshy: So that’s the long-winded answer of saying it’s a complicated answer, but I do think there are ways in which. We can get better at amplifying generosity at even core levels.

George Weiner: Yeah, we can argue [00:21:00] over, you know who killed who out here, but ultimately that’s right. We’re dividing up the pie. And the point of this book is how do I look at my slice?

George Weiner: And it’s not a zero sum, but there’s a sum. How do I think about my tactics, my measurement, my cause and my issue area as it relates to the dopamine and yes, I think at a high level there are more dopamine dealers than ever in the marketplace. I would also maybe add into this narrative, the rise of peer-to-peer giving platforms and this like non, you know, non nonprofit.

George Weiner: Like you don’t need a nonprofit, just send money over to That’s right. Whoever’s story happens to be at the top of this page, um, and well promoted. And I get the same dopamine response regardless of the tax deductible fill in the blank. That is not the reason people give

Cherian Koshy: a hundred percent. Right.

George Weiner: The tough thing about that type of self-reported study though, that I would also point you toward is that if I asked a swath of Americans, let’s say I took 10,000 of them, and I said, where would you put yourself?

George Weiner: Do you believe you’re [00:22:00] an above average driver? Yes. Talk to me about the above average donor problem and just, and also spell out for, for those unfamiliar above average. And by the way, everyone listening right now, you are all above average drivers. Everyone else is on the other side of the curve. Can you parse that out?

Cherian Koshy: So there’s a concept in, um, in the social sciences of where, when people. Take any kind of study, there’s a self-reported bias, right? And when, when folks do self-evaluate, they see themselves as better than they are, which is absolutely an issue when it comes to pro-social behavior. So giving. Obviously is one of those issues, and the University of Chicago study definitely acknowledges that as part of the concern.

Cherian Koshy: I will say that there’s an upside to that when it comes to nonprofit organizations because of a concept called neurolinguistic programming, which is a fancy word for saying that also [00:23:00] another fancy word, but if we’re gonna get into like big words, is cognitive dissonance. So those big words mean that.

Cherian Koshy: People have a view of themselves that is better than what they actually are. So if you take any group of people and say, do you consider yourself open-minded? Most people, almost everyone will say yes. Do you consider yourself generous? Most people would say yes. Do you consider yourself loyal? Most people would say, yes, you can work with that.

Cherian Koshy: To your advantage by saying, as generous people, as open-minded people, as loyal people, to act that out, to live out what you say you are, then to act consistently with that. This is what open-minded, generous, loyal people would do. So I used to work for an arts organization. In one appeal, our, our comms person was like, that is the worst English sentence I’ve ever [00:24:00] seen in my entire life.

Cherian Koshy: And the sentence was something like, you’ve been a generous person in the past and your generosity has allowed us to do something. Something. And we’ve, we used like three versions of the word generous in one sentence. My comms person was like, like, that’s the worst English sentence I’ve ever seen. And I was like, yes, it is.

Cherian Koshy: But in that one sentence, what I want to reinforce to the person who’s reading it is that they are generous. That’s what I was trying to accomplish. This is on purpose. I like, I, I am getting the assignment here, so please don’t change this. That was for a prospect email or prospect postcard actually. And then in the renewal one, we used versions of loyal for this purpose.

Cherian Koshy: So the idea of cognitive distance is that your brain doesn’t like to do things that’s, that are opposite or unaligned [00:25:00] with the way that it thinks of itself. So if you think of yourself as generous, you don’t wanna. Be non generous. If you think of yourself as loyal, you don’t wanna do things as disloyal.

Cherian Koshy: And when those things are like very close together, you say you’re loyal in, you know, one minute, and then you are confronted with an opportunity to be loyal. Your brain says you should do the loyal thing. So that’s a way that you can make those pro-social biases work to your favor.

George Weiner: Yeah. I think this sort of stands on the shoulders a little bit of, I think Robert Cialdini’s work on influence.

George Weiner: Absolutely. Right. And identity alignment. Right. We’re using a lot of words and mixing things together. Neurolinguistic, I’m just saying shorthand, like you’re a good person. Act like a good person. It is. That’s right. Helping them and reminding them, of course, of the labels that they have for themselves, and it’s like, what pair of glasses should I be wearing?

George Weiner: Well, it’s bright outside. I want you to be wearing. Your sunglasses as you [00:26:00] wander out I see into the generous portion of a loyal giving moment. Someone like you has already demonstrated in the past. You’d be deviating from your previous behaviors should you not choose to continue to be generous.

Cherian Koshy: I love that analogy.

Cherian Koshy: I’m gonna steal that if that’s okay. ’cause that’s perfect.

George Weiner: Oh my gosh. I, I’m honored to have been stolen from, I, I just, I think the breadth of what you’re pulling together and I’m seeing these echoes of this research and that research and I, I feel like I’ve bumped along and into these things along the way.

George Weiner: Mm-hmm. Like, you know, a toddler making their way through the, the chaos that literally is above me right now. And I think it’s just something very powerful to pulling these elements together. And I’m wondering if there are any other salient stories that you can. Tease out that came up, that put a pin in why this can matter for the nonprofit planning their, their current year.

Cherian Koshy: I mean, there’s so many [00:27:00] different things, but I mean, when you’re pulling out Tini, for example,

George Weiner: second favorite story, don’t give them the best one. They gotta buy the book. Gimme like the number two.

Cherian Koshy: Gimme I, my, my hope is that everybody gets everything out of like. Podcast and workshops and keynotes and I, I’m all a big fan of just giving it all away, but your point about Chelini is a great one.

Cherian Koshy: So Chelini is quoted in the book quite a bit. Somebody should read Chelini. I’m not saying don’t go get that. Don’t, don’t go get influence. Please do. ’cause it’s a great book or exactly what to say or you know, Ky Kahneman, like all of those books are great, but my hope is that you. If you pick up this book, you get the bits that are most relevant to the work that you are doing as a nonprofit, and then you’re like, oh, I need to understand how Chaldini talks about reciprocity, so I’m gonna go get that book so that I can really focus on what he’s saying that really makes a bigger difference in the work that I’m doing.

Cherian Koshy: Or something like [00:28:00] that. Or Dr. James’s FMRI studies or whatever. It’s so hard to grab. I mean, literally all of the books. And read all of the books. So I’ve sort of done a bit of that work for folks. I’d say I, I guess the one thing that I would say is kind of tying some of the strings that we already talked about together.

Cherian Koshy: Everybody knows that they need to tell stories, and everybody’s told that you need to tell a story. The question always comes back to which stories do we tell and should we just tell these tear-jerking stories or whatnot? And in some of my keynotes, I make an exam. I have this kind of funny example of a tear-jerking story that went awry.

Cherian Koshy: The issue is that folks misunderstand the concept of storytelling because they’re like, we want to just. Have an emotion for emotion’s sake, and that’s the wrong way of approaching it. Without getting into too much detail, what I would say is your goal is to think of the audience of your audience. [00:29:00] And what I mean by that is everyone’s trying to get more donors.

Cherian Koshy: Everyone’s trying to acquire more donors. When you think about. Telling a story to your donor that essentially ends there. That’s the outcome. Your donor makes a gift and it’s done. But if you tell a story for the audience of your audience, the donor is taking your story and telling someone else about the story.

Cherian Koshy: Now you have expanded your fundraising influence to the next circle of folks who can then become another ring of donors or volunteers or ambassadors. That’s the kind of storytelling that is much more powerful. And one example of that, so I, I did a talk at Make-A-Wish Global Leadership Conference, and they, they are incredible storytellers, like incredible story

George Weiner: tellers.

George Weiner: I mean, it’s Story factory. I mean it has all the ingredients.

Cherian Koshy: Just brilliant. So the short version of the [00:30:00] story is the first story that they tell at the leadership college. Their evening of excellence is about this, like you cannot, you cannot do better than this story. This girl named Melody plays in the high school band and she wants band uniforms.

Cherian Koshy: Her wish is to have band uniforms, ’cause the band uniforms are smelly. So the mom and the band director are telling the story on stage, and I am gonna try not to cry for this one. So mom and band director are telling the story because melody has passed away. And they talk about Melody’s impact on the band and how everybody like was so thrilled.

Cherian Koshy: ’cause they got the band uniforms and there’s a little symbol on the band uniform. They show the pictures on the stage and before every, um, game they play, um, amazing grace in honor of melody. And they have this banner that says, um, every song has a melody. Damn, I didn’t make it. And it’s just, I mean, it’s beautiful.

Cherian Koshy: And so. We’re all [00:31:00] sitting there and everybody’s teary-eyed in the whole thing. And, um, the band director says, and, you know, we wanna, we wanna celebrate Melody and her impact, and we wanna share a song with you. And in that moment, everybody’s like, oh, they’re gonna play a video. And of course they have brought the entire band in and they march the band in and they’re on stage and they play.

Cherian Koshy: And it’s just, I mean, it’s perfect. It’s beautiful. And I have told this story now. A dozen times and I have not made it through without crying and there’s 800 people in the room. There is not a dry eye in that, and everyone in that room will retell that story and there is no donor that is not impacted by that story for sure.

Cherian Koshy: But everyone that’s retelling that story is similarly impacted. That’s the value of that kind of story,

George Weiner: and maybe this is the right place to talk about mirror neurons and actually how empathy is communicated. [00:32:00] Why does it matter that that story is told? Why is it more impactful that somebody tells somebody else rather than.

George Weiner: You posting that on the socials, the ad, the informal mailer of like, read this story on this four by six, I, you know, burned a small forest to do this.

Cherian Koshy: So for those that are not familiar with the concept of mirror neurons, if you’ve yawned, when someone’s yawned

George Weiner: even saying it right now, the probability that you are gonna yawn.

George Weiner: ’cause yawning is now on your mind. And if you open your mouth, you’re probably gonna yawn.

Cherian Koshy: Yep,

George Weiner: you’re

Cherian Koshy: welcome. Yeah, exactly. It’s a fascinating concept that people should research. It’s really, it’s a really interesting phenomenon and it plays out in storytelling because in storytelling, it’s a concept of mirror neurons called a complex, more complex concept called neuro coupling, which means that when people hear a story, they don’t just hear the words that you’re saying.

Cherian Koshy: They actually. Feel the story themselves. And studies have actually indicated that in storytelling, [00:33:00] heartbeats sync up and brainwaves sync up. So they’re not, so when I told the story of Melody, you actually pictured someone named Melody and you who were inside of that story with me when that happened. So.

Cherian Koshy: To your point about like reading the story on social media or reading that story in print is a much more different experience than hearing someone tell that story, particularly in person. It’s a very different visceral experience to the brain that affects your brain in a different way that changes your brain chemistry.

Cherian Koshy: So it’s a powerful influence that allows. Those neurochemicals to occur so that your brain is more likely to hold that memory. It changes it, it sticks it into long-term memory, much more, significantly more likely to impact the decisions that you make. So if you’re looking [00:34:00] to get someone to make a donation, for example, that’s the way to do it.

Cherian Koshy: Not to like drop it. I mean, you’re gonna drop things in the mail. I’m not saying stop doing direct mail or you know, social media or something like that. But the whole point around storytelling is don’t do it performatively or don’t do stewardship performatively because someone said you just need to say thank you.

Cherian Koshy: Be intentional about why you’re doing these things from the understanding of the science behind it. And now you know that you’re doing it for a reason to have someone feel something. And when you’re doing that, it changes the story itself, how you’re constructing the story and the delivery mechanism.

Cherian Koshy: And that’s going to change. The way that it’s received and how that reception moves that to future [00:35:00] people, to the audience of your audience. That’s where I think we have an incredible new opportunity, a new frontier.

George Weiner: There’s so much to cover. I do wanna be respectful of your time. I know we have, uh, a few minutes left.

George Weiner: I, yeah. Um, what I take away a little bit from that also is. Your opportunities to do better messaging and more tactical messaging. For example, in that thank you message, when our, you know, we are peaking in terms of our dopamine and how am I delivering a story that they might want to share that they are now part of this journey, what would be that reason to, to share and the motive there as you keep and as said before, the why behind the what?

George Weiner: And that is like helpful as I understand a Mariner and like, oh, I want them sharing because when they do that, they’re going to have a mirroring effect. They’re going to like have the ability to transfer that dopamine in that story that has that positive connection, builds trust and encourages future donors.

George Weiner: I, I’m a little concerned that monthly [00:36:00] giving is screwed in your dopamine equation because

Cherian Koshy: Say more words.

George Weiner: I, I’m here, I’m here for my, I’m here for the dopamine. I’m here for my magnanimous gift to be celebrated as the delightful, above average donor that I am. And when I do that in a single gift right my entire year, I get that in that moment.

George Weiner: But when I sign up and I get a line item on my credit card bill, I’m like, I got nothing. I have a bill to pay, and it happens in the background. It’s dormant, it’s fire, and forget. Annoying subscription to the AI tool, I meant to cancel that kept going,

Cherian Koshy: Hmm.

George Weiner: It doesn’t feel like dopamine to me. How do you reconcile this?

Cherian Koshy: And yet, in, in a well-designed monthly recurring giving situation, this is habit formation at its very best. So if you don’t [00:37:00] do a good donor relations strategy aligned with. Monthly and recurring giving, then yes, it can be that annoying subscription that I forgot to, to unsubscribe from or, or get rid of.

Cherian Koshy: But if there is a consistent Q reward loop that occurs with habit formation, just like we talked about with Helpers High that says. You accomplished something. You did something that was good. Then what happens is every time they see that come out of their checking account or on their credit card, that association with something that was good creates a positive habit formation loop and they’re like, I am a consistent donor.

Cherian Koshy: I am doing something that is good. I’m a card carrying member of. Blah, blah, blah. That reinforces a much more significant identity relationship to the organization, to the cause, so that it is actually something that is much more difficult [00:38:00] to remove than literally anything else. So I would say that even more than a single one-time gift, monthly or recurring gift has a stronger affinity if done correctly.

Cherian Koshy: If done correctly, it has a much greater potential because of the repetition, um, of, of that habit.

George Weiner: Yeah. You have the opportunity to align with their identity rather than a transactional single hit of dopamine. A one and done moment, but rather that, um, that is nuanced though, because if you don’t remind and it was transactional, you run the risk of unsubscribe from my AI tool.

Cherian Koshy: What I will add though, and Jim Langley and I have had this conversation, so folks aren’t following Jim Langley on social media, particularly on LinkedIn. I would highly recommend the folks that are responsible for first time gifts and monthly gifts are typically the folks that are [00:39:00] less experienced. And that is a problem because they are most in need of a much more significant focus on a fragile identity relationship to the cause.

Cherian Koshy: The folks that have had their habit ingrained, the folks that have had a long time relationship with the organization and less at risk of their identity being fractured, are given the most experienced people. This is a misunderstanding of staffing, right? So. You have someone who makes their first gift.

Cherian Koshy: Their, their, the connection to the cause is new. They make their their monthly gift and you put someone who doesn’t really have a lot of experience and they don’t have a lot of budget to play with. And we put the least amount of resources and the least trained people in those situations. And then we put someone who’s given for years.

Cherian Koshy: They’re like, I love this organization. I love this cause. And we put our most seasoned [00:40:00] professionals who have great listing skills, who have great professional development, who have lots of training on those people. So much so that the donor is so seasoned and so loves the organization. That will put our.

Cherian Koshy: Least expen experienced fundraisers into those donor situations because the donor’s so forgiving that they’re like, oh yeah, we’ll have a conversation even if the fundraiser gets it wrong. We’ll, it will, it’ll be okay. Like it just doesn’t make any sense. Like it’s totally lopsided. We should put our greatest listeners, our greatest resources around the people who.

Cherian Koshy: Are most likely to need reinforcement of the helpers high in those critical moments. So if we did that, we would have more long-term donors and more stronger relationships from the outset.

George Weiner: Yeah, I guess I, I categorize that into don’t ignore the power law, right? Um, 1% of the people [00:41:00] will do 99% of the lift.

George Weiner: Ignoring them, assuming that you’re going to turn, you know, 1% into a hundred percent of your donor list, and we get everyone to act like Cherian over there as a super connector, we’re gonna be, you’re not gonna do it. You’re gonna get more from the people that do more and it’s, you know, a, a well taken point.

George Weiner: And I see it manifest a lot of places. Your book is rising up the ranks of USA today. It’s probably gonna be topping every single chart by the time this comes out. I’m curious, you do an interview after interview, what question is not being asked? About this book, and you’re like, why isn’t anyone asking about the free pot of money at the end of the rainbow?

Cherian Koshy: I think, uh, I think a lot of different questions are being asked. Do I don’t know that there’s any question that hasn’t been asked at this point. I, I think the one question that hasn’t been asked enough is what do we do now in the world of ai, uh, around, particularly around storytelling and, um. Uh, and brain based science.

Cherian Koshy: That’s probably the one [00:42:00] question that I’m the most nervous about. I went back to the editor and shoved, uh, a couple of pages in right at the end, ’cause I got real nervous about how people might misuse some of the stuff around that. So that’s, that’s probably the one I guess I’m most nervous about.

George Weiner: Yeah.

George Weiner: The ability for AI to manipulate tactics inside of here for the purposes of not the best.

Cherian Koshy: Yes. Yep.

George Weiner: I loved this conversation. I have some rapid fire for you if you Yeah, if you humor me. Keep your short, uh, responses short.

Cherian Koshy: Sure.

George Weiner: And perfect. You must be

Cherian Koshy: okay. I’ll do my

George Weiner: best. Alrighty, here we go. What is, uh, one tech tool or website that you’ve started using in the past year?

Cherian Koshy: I’ve started using Motion, um, motion.com. I believe it’s a calendaring tool that’s helped. It just moves stuff on my calendar when I don’t get to it. It’s really been good. For task organization.

George Weiner: What is a tech issue you’re currently battling with?

Cherian Koshy: There’s so many. I would say [00:43:00] either Vibe coding has given me a lot of heart heartburn or like.

Cherian Koshy: Create, I do a lot of talks of slide deck creation like ai slide deck creation’s real bad.

George Weiner: What is coming in the next year and that has you the most excited.

Cherian Koshy: I am so excited about organizations making the leap into authenticity instead of artificiality. I think that’s the exciting thing that I’m, uh, I’m, yeah, the thing that I’m most excited about.

George Weiner: Can you talk about a mistake that you made earlier in your career that shapes the way you do things today?

Cherian Koshy: Easy answer. I made the mistake of thinking I knew what I was doing and not asking for help.

George Weiner: Do you believe that nonprofits can successfully go outta business?

Cherian Koshy: They can. They rarely do.

George Weiner: If I were to throw you into a hot tub time machine, back to the beginning of your work in the sector, what advice would you give yourself?

Cherian Koshy: Besides the asking for help piece, it’s to collaborate more with folks, to [00:44:00] invite more people into the work and not try to do it all myself. I still need that advice, but to involve more people.

George Weiner: What is something that you or your organization should stop doing?

Cherian Koshy: Stop doing. I, I feel like that’s an answer in and of itself, that more people need to just stop doing things and prioritize the book.

Cherian Koshy: Essentialism is a really good book around that concept that the word priority means the one thing, and focusing on one thing is better than having multiple priorities. So I, I actually say. That’s my answer is just stop doing too many things.

George Weiner: If I gave you magic wand to wave across the industry, what would it do?

Cherian Koshy: Be intentional about what it’s doing and understand that unintentional choices impact the sector insignificant ways.

George Weiner: How did you get started in the social impact sector?

Cherian Koshy: Accidentally. A friend of mine became an executive director of an organization and said, Hey, can you help me out? And I was [00:45:00] like, yep, we’ll figure this out together.

Cherian Koshy: Like most people fell backwards into it.

George Weiner: Uh, what advice would you give college grads currently looking to enter the social impact sector?

Cherian Koshy: I would say if you’re really serious about making an impact in the social impact space, then this is a great career path for you to do. But I would caution folks against taking an approach that maybe I did as well around like.

Cherian Koshy: I’m smarter than everybody in the social impact space, and I can go in and fix all the problems that I see because. I know better. I think it’s better to come into the space thinking I have something. I certainly have something to offer, but I also need to listen to what’s happening in the space and why things are the way they are.

George Weiner: What advice did your parents give you that you either followed or didn’t follow?

Cherian Koshy: The piece of advice that my father gave me several times before he [00:46:00] passed away is that wealth can be lost. Health can be lost, but. Character is something you should never lose.

George Weiner: Oh, that’s beautiful. Thanks for spending the time with us.

George Weiner: How do people find you? How do people help you?

Cherian Koshy: People can find me on all the socials and my website is sharing koshi.com. People can help me by taking what we’ve talked about and sharing it with everybody they can find, letting people know about the content of the book, whether they’ve read it or not, and just sharing that information anywhere.

George Weiner: I think it’d help any nonprofit improve what they’re trying to do with their communications and understanding the why behind the what. Fantastic work. Thank you so much.

Cherian Koshy: Thanks for having me on. I really appreciate it. Great conversation.